00:00:01.200 — 00:00:39.360 · Speaker 1

Welcome to the making sense of martech, where the rabbit hole goes deeper than the headlines. This is a show that pressure tests ideas, not just platforms on the hot seat. Today we have Courtney Tierney. She built a career on the agency side, telling brands what their CRM strategy should be. Then she went in-house and had to actually build it.

One system, one budget cycle, and one skeptical stakeholder at a time. And today, what agency experience really prepares you to do and what it doesn't prepare for you at all? So a little bit about her first one. Before we even get into the introduction. I've known Courtney for a decade. She's been my account director not once, but twice.

00:00:40.560 — 00:01:44.270 · Speaker 1

And she is the best. Um, but Courtney is the director of CRM and customer engagement at Papa John's, where she now owns the vision for how the brand communicates with 42 million loyalty members across email, push, SMS and in-app. Before going in-house, she worked on the agency side for years, most recently as the senior director of account planning and research at Digital Additive, a Salesforce marketing cloud agency where her clients included Grammarly and WeWork, and prior to that, she worked agency side at Great Worldwide as well as IHG inhouse.

Welcome, Courtney. Thank you for being here. I'm so excited for this conversation because there are few this qualified to talk about it. And having gone from in-house to agency back and forth multiple times, moving from advising to owning means the accountability changes shape often. And now that you're no longer the smart outside voice, you're in the room.

You're the person whose name is on the result, and that's a pivot that not everyone can handle.

00:01:44.790 — 00:01:46.950 · Speaker 2

Or handle multiple times, which I've done.

00:01:46.990 — 00:01:56.230 · Speaker 1

So that is true. All right. So to dive in we'll start off with some quick rapid fire. What was your first martech tool?

00:01:56.270 — 00:02:07.580 · Speaker 2

I actually had to look it up. So my first martech tool was at IHG when I was in house running our life cycle marketing team, and we were on strong mail. Way back in the day, right?

00:02:07.620 — 00:02:09.060 · Speaker 1

I don't know that one.

00:02:09.420 — 00:02:17.140 · Speaker 2

So it eventually became Epsilon or we moved to Epsilon, one of the two. But yeah, we started on a strong mail.

00:02:18.300 — 00:02:19.740 · Speaker 2

Probably really dates me.

00:02:21.140 — 00:02:22.220 · Speaker 1

It's a deep cut.

00:02:22.540 — 00:02:31.620 · Speaker 2

It is a deep cut, but I really sunk my teeth in and learned with Salesforce Marketing Cloud when I was a digital additive with you.

00:02:32.100 — 00:02:40.740 · Speaker 1

Yes. Okay. Agency life versus in-house. What's the one thing you genuinely miss and don't say? Just the variety of clients.

00:02:40.740 — 00:03:27.820 · Speaker 2

I will just say, really, the agency energy and the pitch of it all. When you're getting a new client or onboarding a new client. At my last agency job before Papa John's, we did a lot of implementation. So for us it was really exciting, like building something and migrating over what they had and making a lot of improvements.

So, you know, it's just the buzz around that. I think you get an agency that you really don't get in house because nobody really cares but you. So I get excited, but nobody else around me cares. It's not like when we're like, launching a big brand campaign where everybody's excited or a big social takeover.

Everybody's excited about that. Nobody's excited about a new CRM platform.

00:03:28.300 — 00:03:31.780 · Speaker 1

Yeah, the behind the scenes doesn't get the same level of praise in. No.

00:03:32.100 — 00:03:37.300 · Speaker 2

No. And last year I had an agency. And that's all you do. Then you do get the buzz and I missed that.

00:03:37.620 — 00:03:49.260 · Speaker 1

Yeah, that makes sense. So in a pitch meeting, what is the fastest tell that an agency actually understands your business versus is pattern matching from their last three clients.

00:03:49.300 — 00:04:18.010 · Speaker 2

For me it is. Just because you've worked on a type of business doesn't mean it's the same. And I'll give an example like QSR can be very different when you're in pizza versus if you're bulls or the landscape is very different. So I think agencies make a lot of assumptions like, yeah, we've done that type of brand so we know what's best.

And oftentimes they are very surprised.

00:04:18.410 — 00:04:25.730 · Speaker 1

Yeah, I think many agencies could do well learning that specific company's business model first by asking questions.

00:04:26.050 — 00:04:42.130 · Speaker 2

Exactly. And I think the other thing too is understanding the platforms and the technologies that there are that they're on. And a lot of assumptions are made as well in the pitch that what works for one, again, will work for another. And that's not always true.

00:04:42.170 — 00:04:43.570 · Speaker 1

Without a doubt.

00:04:43.610 — 00:04:44.930 · Speaker 2

Do you know that? Yes.

00:04:46.530 — 00:04:56.960 · Speaker 1

What's the most confidently wrong thing you believed about in-house marketing before you were actually doing it? Or did you start in-house then when agency and no.

00:04:56.960 — 00:05:46.400 · Speaker 2

So I started agency and I remember thinking when I got in house and IHG, I was like, wow, it took them so long to get back to me. And I was always frustrated. You know, there are meetings all the time. They can't really be that busy and they can't really be in that many meetings. Well, we are, and I think that was something I really realized when I got over to the client side, and even when I bounced back and forth in my career, is you truly are spread really thin on the client side, whereas I think agency, you can really have some big teams and bulk up and have everything that you need to support the clients or on the client side, we truly are working very thin and pulled in a million different directions.

When I was younger, I didn't think that that could be true and it really is.

00:05:46.440 — 00:06:17.870 · Speaker 1

No, it very much is. Uh, it's like if you're not in a meeting, you're in a meeting about a meeting to get a meeting or about the progress or lack thereof. Instead of work, you are four times praise certified and you also are three times marketing Cloud certified. To be honest, how much of the genuine expertise versus playing the game the platforms like, especially the incentivized for agency side.

Which one do you think is more pay to play? Do you think there is value to it? What are your thoughts?

00:06:17.910 — 00:06:56.820 · Speaker 2

You know, I do think that there is value to it. I think especially if you are on the agency side saying that you're an expert, not just generalist, that you really should have those certifications, especially if you're working, you know, hand in hand with the with the platform. I think if they have to take it, you're an agency that's supporting those same programs.

You should have to take it as well. From the client side, I think it's rare that so many people take those certifications. But I think for me and our team, it's important that we at least understand what we want and what we're talking about. And I think taking those certifications do help.

00:06:56.860 — 00:07:00.140 · Speaker 1

I'll give you my hot take. I don't believe in certifications.

00:07:01.180 — 00:07:02.380 · Speaker 2

But, you know, I don't think you.

00:07:02.380 — 00:07:03.860 · Speaker 1

Should be forced ahead of time.

00:07:03.860 — 00:07:24.460 · Speaker 2

But I think it also depends on your role and I think we'll talk through it. But having a team in house that is building everything versus an agency, I do think it's important for those roles to have those certifications. Me maybe not so much, but I just love learning and so I do make the time to do them.

00:07:24.740 — 00:07:30.420 · Speaker 1

Well, it's good to be educated on what your team is doing or not doing. Correct. Okay.

00:07:30.460 — 00:07:32.300 · Speaker 2

Helps you ask the right questions.

00:07:32.700 — 00:07:35.980 · Speaker 1

Exactly. What is your hottest take?

00:07:36.100 — 00:08:24.610 · Speaker 2

Hottest take? Well, let's say data is still here and still is important now than it's ever been. And I think definitely in that age of AI data is so important. I mean, you can start to incorporate AI into your marketing. But if you don't have the right data, that's going to power that AI decision engine. It's not going to give you the right strategies that you're looking for.

And so I think we are probably working together at the time when data was the buzzword. Now AI is the buzzword. But I will say like data still is the most important thing, and you've got to have clean data that's relevant to your customers to execute on strong strategies. That's my hot take.

00:08:24.650 — 00:08:58.410 · Speaker 1

So to set the stage a little bit, Courtney was paid for years to advise brands on exactly the kind of work she's now owning, end to end. And the move from agency to in-house is not a lateral shift in skill set. It's a shift in what you're actually accountable for, and agency work and in-house work look really similar on a resume sometimes, but they're by no means the same job.

What's something you were confident about as an agency strategist that turned out to be wrong once you actually own the outcome?

00:08:58.490 — 00:10:12.200 · Speaker 2

Yeah. So on the agency side, you relied sometimes more on your client to pipe in that. Right? Analytics. We all know that there's a lot of challenges with the platform from a reporting standpoint. So you really do have to rely on the accurate reporting oftentimes from your client. And that could be really frustrating.

So you know on the client side you're like, oh great. We have all this data and we'll have all these great reports and dashboards. But you have to work hard to get that. And I think it's really partnering with your data sciences team and your reporting teams to get the right reporting and right dashboards, because if not your spending or your team spending a lot of time pulling down reports from, you know, three different platforms and then your in-house platform and merging it all together.

So I think it's really important to take the time to set up the right reporting before you launch something. And I've actually been told, like, you know, you're taking too long. Go ahead and launch it. And I've held off until we had all the right solid data integrations that we needed to have the right reporting.

00:10:12.360 — 00:10:18.840 · Speaker 1

A belated apologies, because we definitely didn't have those ready for you. The two companies I worked at.

00:10:19.480 — 00:10:51.910 · Speaker 2

You can look at those engagement metrics. But being on the client side, I know right now for us a Papa John's, what's really important is sales and margin. And so if you don't have that information, it is hard from an agency to say whether or not you can say that campaigns working from an engagement opens, clicks, sessions, conversions.

But whether or not that's truly driving sales conversion without negatively impacting margin, it's hard to tell that story without that data. And you often do have to rely on your clients for it.

00:10:51.950 — 00:11:24.230 · Speaker 1

At the Salesforce Marketing Cloud Agency or at Digital Additive, you advised clients like me as well as many other well-known brands. Off the top of my head, from just knowing Home Depot, Carters, Revlon, Estée Lauder, you name it, and they were all on Marketing Cloud, which makes sense considering the agency.

Meanwhile, Papa John's is on praise. Did your marketing cloud expertise turn out to be irrelevant on day one, or actually, did it mean being platform agnostic? Underneath? All those certifications matter more than the specific tool?

00:11:24.270 — 00:12:07.020 · Speaker 2

Yeah, I mean, I think it truly is platform agnostic. You need to understand how to maximize the tool. And I don't think that changes from one platform to another. There are certainly nuances of the platform, but that's why you have your support teams at that platform, whether it be Salesforce or Braze or Iterable or whatever it may be.

And I think it's really understanding how you need to lean into those teams to help you execute and scale. I think being able to ask the right questions, you'll know the questions to ask regardless of the platform once you're in it. Once you've implemented and since you know the seven years I was at that agency, you know, we implemented many clients.

00:12:07.060 — 00:12:25.460 · Speaker 1

Yeah, I think it's a misnomer, especially even like in job descriptions, like you need to only have this one tool experience. Sometimes, like marketing cloud, it can be very helpful to have that explicit experience. But at the same time there are translatable skills across different platforms.

00:12:25.500 — 00:12:26.820 · Speaker 2

100% agree.

00:12:26.860 — 00:12:35.540 · Speaker 1

Yeah, because now you're in-house. Are you more empathetic or harder on your agency teams?

00:12:36.460 — 00:13:53.520 · Speaker 2

I think both, and I think it depends on the team and the expertise. I would say the hardest agencies I think sometimes to work with are when they're more generalized than those who are more specialized in CRM loyalty in the platforms, because you really do have that subject matter expert. So I think I do have high expectations from agencies.

Definitely. I've been told I am tough on my agencies, but, you know, I'm always making sure that I'm top with kindness and mistakes happen across the board. I've been there when I was on the agency side, and so I think I also had that perspective where, you know, I could be sympathetic to issues happening or maybe misalignments on strategies.

But I think for me, it's making sure that they've learned the lesson and not like repeating it. I think that's where I probably get harder is if we keep seeing that mistake and I treat my my team the same way. You know, everybody, nobody is perfect and we're all learning something new and some mistakes will happen.

But it's what you learn from that mistake and and how you improve it, improve it, and own up to it.

00:13:53.520 — 00:14:30.640 · Speaker 1

Exactly. There's nothing worse I can think of like one painful example, but you can never quite predict the things you don't know to do. And that was something on top of the mind of all We Work employees was like, oh no. Every time there's a crisis or a natural weather event that Mother Nature takes over, you immediately.

Like, what do we do about our members or our future members? And those are just some of the instincts that you shouldn't have to take on as an agency. But at the same time, you have to pay for it. It's a tricky like, that's not a mistake. That's just a oh, I didn't think of it. Yeah.

00:14:30.680 — 00:14:47.680 · Speaker 2

And I think what's important to lesson learned there is, you know, that they're always going to happen. So it's like outlining what that procedure and process should be making sure everybody is on the same page and if something's coming, just suppress them because you can always add them to the next end.

00:14:47.720 — 00:14:55.080 · Speaker 1

I think that was a good example of client side was not prepared to inform agency side. Yeah.

00:14:55.120 — 00:15:02.680 · Speaker 2

So we set up an automated process to help with that because there are too many late nights in a row to suppress people.

00:15:03.160 — 00:15:44.110 · Speaker 1

So now let's get specific about the stack and the craft, because the systems you build in-house are a very different animal than the ones you recommend from outside. So right now, to my knowledge, you have ran Bray's Punch and Salesforce Marketing Cloud in coordination with the stack, and an agency might pitch one elegant recommendation on a slide of all in one solution.

What do agencies continually fundamentally misunderstand about the operational cost of actually running multiple enterprise platforms together day to day, versus a really pretty slide that recommends something else.

00:15:44.230 — 00:16:36.910 · Speaker 2

Seen that many times in my career, I think it's really understanding again, data. The data that goes into all these various platforms. And while it may seem to flow really nicely on the slide, it doesn't always flow really nicely. So I think what's really important is to ask the right questions of your clients and not just talk to marketing.

I mean, you should also talk to it and to the data science team and the reporting team to understand how those stacks all go together. And it may take more time at the up front, but then you'll have a much better solution at the end if you understand all those. This person is different and punch than it is in brazed.

And then you have misalignment. So I think it's really important to get get that all figured out before you implement anything.

00:16:37.270 — 00:17:09.660 · Speaker 1

Agreed. So last year you presented at Bray's Forge on the dollars and cents of deliverability, and you reframe deliverability as a revenue lever, not a technical metric. I love that because I've also phrased and framed deliverability as an insurance policy, too, and lots of different ways of thinking about it.

So is that the kind of insight that's only earned by owning the outcome in-house or something that you just you have made that same case with the same conviction agency side?

00:17:09.699 — 00:18:55.840 · Speaker 2

Yeah. I mean, I think on the agency side, I just saw a lot more because you're working with so many more clients, you can see those who really care about it and follow your recommendations and those who don't. And at the agency, at one point, there was a client who was not following the recommendations and got themselves into deliverability.

JL and then we had to help get them out of it. So I saw firsthand on how it can impact revenue. Because if you're not getting into the inbox, then you truly are not driving revenue. And email is so important across all verticals. So when I got to Papa John's, I knew how important it was. And so, you know, I see.

So one thing on the client side, you're always faced with our budgets and it really looks like an easy one to cut, especially at that leadership level. Like, why do you need to pay this much to have these deliverability tools? And, uh, the good news is, as soon as somebody instructed me to start looking at cutting it, we started to have some issues and emails were not getting into the direct inbox.

And so we were able to make some changes, but it just shed light on how important it is. And it's also one of those. And I even have to tell my team they're like, you know, why do we have to look at these reports every week or do readouts with our deliverability partner. and we did have an issue with. I think a lot of people had an issue with Microsoft Office this year.

There was a lot of spam traps and just odd issues. And so, you know, our team was impacted and had to make a lot of changes because of it and build it back up.

00:18:55.840 — 00:19:16.400 · Speaker 1

So yeah, it's one of those that you don't think about until you are in deliverability jail and you're trying to work your way out, and then all of a sudden leadership is coming to you. What's happening? Why or why is the needle not moving? Yeah, it can be a very hard business case because it is technical, right?

00:19:16.440 — 00:19:32.680 · Speaker 2

When this past year we really have been increasing our volumes. And I think that that's okay. As long as you have like the right strategy for increasing those volumes with time and staggering them across, there's a lot of strategies to do it and do it safely.

00:19:32.680 — 00:19:51.590 · Speaker 1

Correct. And also, not to mention if your volume is different from day to day, week to week. It can be very difficult. I know I've experienced that firsthand where the first day of the week you're sending a lot of things, and then the latter part of the week you're sending, but nowhere near that volume. And it can be a very tricky thing to navigate.

00:19:51.630 — 00:20:10.390 · Speaker 2

Yeah. And I will say for, you know, pizza specifically, there are certain days like, say, sports and Fridays. And so that those are the days where we tend to increase our volumes. And so you want to make sure that you're doing that in such a way that it doesn't impact on a Friday night.

00:20:10.430 — 00:20:11.830 · Speaker 1

Without a doubt, that would not.

00:20:11.870 — 00:20:18.230 · Speaker 2

Or I'm Super Bowl right? Can you imagine if we got put in deliverability Joe on Super Bowl Sunday?

00:20:18.230 — 00:20:20.110 · Speaker 1

So that would not be a good campaign.

00:20:20.150 — 00:20:26.030 · Speaker 2

Yeah. And some people think, well, just don't send anything for the days leading up. And that's not the right strategy either.

00:20:26.030 — 00:21:07.230 · Speaker 1

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00:21:08.310 — 00:21:23.270 · Speaker 1

And now back to the hot seat. Your most recent Email Insider Summit panel was about aligning own channels and managing frequency. When you were agency side was frequency someone else's problem to actually manage? Did the clients or the agency carry that consequence?

00:21:23.350 — 00:23:11.970 · Speaker 2

I think honestly, it just depended on the client. I saw it both ways. I would say from my seat though, on the client side, what I think is the hardest sometimes with agencies, especially more of the generalist agencies, is that they'll come up with these great campaigns. And it's like Sen Sen. Sen and they have this high frequency strategy.

Well, then you don't think about the fatigue that a customer may have or deliverability issues. And really, what's the right channel to do? It's not just email. So I think really thinking through the frequency across all the channels and then looking at, you know, data and insights and AI as well, like what is it, what channel is somebody interacting in?

I think oftentimes we do get caught up on frequency and volume. And if nobody's going to open a, you know, SMS message from you, it's much more expensive than an email. So why are we doing full files? And oftentimes that's what clients expect agencies to say to do. Or clients, maybe their leadership team just wants you to send more and more, and it just falls on deaf ears, the consumer.

And then you get a lot of opt outs. And I think a big part of what I was talking about there is that struggle between national and local, right. So at Papa John's and many showers and when I was in hospitality at IHG, I mean, you they it is franchise owned. And so we have a handful of corporate stores but most of them are franchised.

So they want to send messages local to their store. You want to send messages that are national and they oftentimes compete with one another. So it is coming up with the right contact strategy for that customer.

00:23:12.050 — 00:23:17.250 · Speaker 1

And people often forget if folks aren't opening your email, that impacts your delivery abilities too.

00:23:17.290 — 00:23:18.970 · Speaker 2

That does too. Yeah. You're right.

00:23:18.970 — 00:23:28.890 · Speaker 1

And so it's you don't want to over send you want to find just the right fit and mix and channel mix for your audience base.

00:23:28.890 — 00:24:07.120 · Speaker 2

That is individualized by customer too. So it's not. It's coming up with the right strategy that again, cliché 1 to 1 customer because every customer is different and we're all different. You know I'm terrible at opening emails, but I am much better at opening up pushes and texts. We're doing a lot of competition type strategies, right?

If we know that one of our competitors is either coming into that area or leaving that area, right. So maybe that a store is closing and so there's an opportunity to grab some share from that competitor that's closing and then also protect. If you know that a competitor is coming in.

00:24:07.160 — 00:24:19.880 · Speaker 1

Versus the generic hi blank name. And it's a nice warm welcome for sure. When you're on client side, do you have the instinct to build internal capabilities or to outsource them?

00:24:19.920 — 00:26:16.740 · Speaker 2

I think both, and it really just depends on the business need. We are very reactive in the QSR industry. So if a promotion that we're running over the weekend is not doing well on a Monday, we will pivot, right? Or if our competitor comes up with a big Bogo like we're going to pivot. So I think for us it made sense to bring it in-house because we really did need to be agile and move quickly.

And I think that that's a lot of pressure to put on an agency. And I've been there where it's like, oh, you want me to turn this around in two hours? It's also very hard internally, but I do think it's easier if you build the right team. So we had people on the East Coast and the West Coast, so we've got support.

If something comes up later in the day, a team that can help support it. And I think we can we can move quickly when we need to. I think the challenge you'll have when you build that in the house is everybody just assumes you'll be willing to turn something around in 24 hours. So I think it's important as a leader to make sure you set those parameters or when and when we won't be doing those things, so we don't burn out a team.

And I think that that is maybe the bigger risk internally when you build that team. But it's also a risk at agencies life, right? So that team can be burnt out. I think sometimes miss when we're not working with an agency. It's just that thinking outside the box and having those insights front that they learn from other clients.

I think inside my box. And that's why, you know, I go to conferences and I'll be at the Braes Forge conference next week. And I think it's making sure, too, that you lean on if it's not an agency, platform, partners or, you know, networking to make sure that you understand what new technologies or strategies that there are.

00:26:17.820 — 00:26:35.820 · Speaker 1

In terms of tracking competitors. How do you go about doing this? Do you have a slack channel that tells you in this city or in this town in the zip code, like how do you go about maintaining that in monitoring in order to leverage that from a campaign perspective?

00:26:35.860 — 00:28:15.010 · Speaker 2

Yeah, I mean, it's hard. We do have a field marketing team and we work really closely with them so they know what's happening. Like boots on the ground. I think for us it's creating automations and processes so we can easily copy and paste or have that set up for what happens, because what happens in one region or one zip code is going to happen at the other.

So I think that's important. Um, obviously from a brand perspective, our brand team and insights team has a lot of competitor insights into offers, promotions, how they're positioning the brand, but they're not necessarily going that level deeper into the actual communication. So that's really either on our team or we rely heavily if we don't have an agency on our partners, uh, our CRM platform partners to really help us understand what what's happening in the competitive space.

And also there's a lot of translation into, you know, what's happening in retail. I mean, if you think about QSR and pizza in general, unless you're a brand that has an in-house sit down, I mean, you really are in app and digital, right? Because you're not sitting down and making an order or going in and ordering at the counter.

We are very much, you know, reliant on our web and app for orders. So I think learning, learning that process and AI is part of it now too. We have AI so people can use AI to make orders. And so it's just adapting to the ever changing technology and expectations of the consumers. Right.

00:28:15.050 — 00:28:40.640 · Speaker 1

Let's zoom out a little bit for the moment, because your journey is now very common question for people in this industry. Well, a lot of people are bouncing between. Do I go in house? Do I go out on my own? Do I go to an agency? And there's a lot of different varieties of folks, especially now that, you know, the working model of business is changing.

00:28:40.680 — 00:28:41.400 · Speaker 2

And it's changing.

00:28:41.440 — 00:29:12.200 · Speaker 1

Yeah, there's a lot of a lot of changes. So the previous or maybe the current depends on who you ask. Industry convention is that agency work is a generalist training ground and in-house is where you specialize. Does that actually hold up or is it the reverse where an in-house team is, where you get to learn and generalize across different systems, teams, and budget cycles?

Or is the agency work where you specialize in narrowly on an individual tool, platform, strategy, you name it?

00:29:12.200 — 00:30:54.860 · Speaker 2

I think on both sides it depends on the agency and their expertise, and it also depends on the brand and where they're focused most on. So, you know, I've worked at brands Where they really focused on digital and CRM and loyalty, and they see the benefits of having a strong CRM and loyalty program. I also have worked at clients where it's not as important to maybe the CMO at the time.

And so I've seen that change, even at Papa John's in the short amount of time. But, you know, we've seen a lot of transition as to is email's still important. And then you have folks who come in and say, yeah, it is. And they see the value. So I think it really just depends. But I've also seen on the other side when we're hiring internally, like, oh, well, we only want to hire from within say client side or within QSR side.

And I think that that really narrows the breadth of understanding that somebody has. I often say like some of the best marketers have both the client and the agency side. I don't say that just because it's me, But I really do see that from the folks that we hire, because they can see both sides and they can be sympathetic and think ahead.

A couple more steps, knowing you know how agencies work or knowing how clients work. So I always say do both. I think when you're young, there's no better way to learn than being at like a really fast pace and agency. But I also think that there's some hesitation because if you ultimately want to get to the client side, sometimes it is hard transitioning from the agency to client side.

00:30:54.860 — 00:31:17.980 · Speaker 1

So for sure, no, I think everyone truthfully should have to do both at some point in order to be well-rounded. Yeah, but I strongly believe everyone should have to do at least a year at an agency to just understand what is possible. But I'm also a huge proponent for building institutional knowledge in-house because otherwise you've outsourced all your knowledge.

00:31:18.020 — 00:31:20.140 · Speaker 2

Yeah, I think it's important to do both.

00:31:20.540 — 00:31:29.210 · Speaker 1

Yes. And I guess that question. Have you seen a lot of clients throughout the years outsourced their knowledge in general?

00:31:29.250 — 00:32:22.130 · Speaker 2

I have, yeah. And, um, I think that there's a risk doing that. Right. So when I started, we were completely outsourced and using managed services. And then when we moved to platforms, that platform didn't have a managed services team. Right. So we had to hire an agency to come in and implement. And then we use that agency to help build.

And then we ended up building our own and rolling off. And so I think it's staying close and understanding. There's going to be times where there's so much on your plate, you are going to have to go back to hire an agency. And it may not be full time, but I, I think having somebody who you trust that when things get really busy and your team can't take on anymore, you have somebody you can go back to and and rely on.

And I've done that before in my career.

00:32:22.490 — 00:32:23.330 · Speaker 1

Agreed.

00:32:23.370 — 00:32:26.770 · Speaker 2

I always say, don't burn any bridges because you just never know.

00:32:27.370 — 00:32:29.650 · Speaker 1

Many people do. So I'll say

00:32:30.930 — 00:32:39.250 · Speaker 1

no. I feel very fortunate because every agency that I've worked with long term ended up. We all stayed friends because it's.

00:32:39.250 — 00:32:47.210 · Speaker 2

Industry so small. Just be a nice person and be kind. Um, so you're going to see them again in some other career?

00:32:48.010 — 00:33:07.170 · Speaker 1

Exactly. All right. What is one piece of conventional wisdom about the interchangeable move that you would tell folks to ignore? We've been telling them what they should consider and do, but what something may be like. Yeah, you don't need to think about that.

00:33:07.210 — 00:34:02.480 · Speaker 2

I think kind of what I just said, which is you can do both. You know, just ignore the haters who say, like, if your agency, you got a stage and see if your client, you got to say client, I would not take that advice. You know, I just made sure you're working for the right agency and the right brand. And I'll just give an example.

When I was at IHG. I wasn't in the platform, strong male and Epsilon, but I worked with that team that I had so much interest. And I went to an agency where they specialized in email and CRM, and that's where I got really narrow. And then that really helped me put my got me to my next job, which is where I am now, building a team.

So I think it's figuring out what you really enjoy. And there's a million agencies and a million brands out there. So if you know you're really interested in loyalty, well, then find an agency who specializes in loyalty. There's plenty of them out there.

00:34:02.480 — 00:34:22.870 · Speaker 1

So for sure, it's interesting you say that because my own experience, the reason why I went agency first, was to broaden my experience. And I was like, I, I want to learn far more and more industries to have a perspective so that I can be more well-rounded. So everyone's got a slightly different approach when you've done both sides.

00:34:22.909 — 00:35:30.180 · Speaker 2

Yeah, I think for me it just has always been in the data and insights and reporting. And so I started out my career in direct mail marketing and it was before email is we even had email and push and SMS. So I think to another thing I would say is don't listen to people when they say like, stick with what you know, or that technology or platform or that channel or anything for that matter, because technology is always changing and consumers are always changing.

It depends on the agency. Right. So I would say, for instance, at Digital Additive, we were so focused on email. But then as Salesforce changed and the the landscape changed, we embraced mobile and SMS and and digital. But there are other agencies that didn't. So I think it really just depends if if you have that mindset that you're willing to learn as the industry changes, then I don't think you become obsolete.

And I think AI is going to be a great example of that in the coming years.

00:35:30.620 — 00:35:31.340 · Speaker 1

Oh yeah.

00:35:31.380 — 00:36:19.930 · Speaker 2

I mean, I think we're doing a lot of great things in AI, but I think as an industry it's we're doing a lot of bad things too, right? I mean, we all can pull out those AI generated images really easily. So I think with everything that's just being cautious and using what works best for your brand and who you want to be, not what you feel like you should be.

So I think again, it comes down to I don't think it's going to replace people, it's going to change how we work, but you're still always going to need the people to input the briefs and input the strategies. But I think AI can really help us too, with scale. I think there's a lot of opportunity if you do it right.

So I'd say with everything like, don't be afraid.

00:36:19.970 — 00:36:43.330 · Speaker 1

Okay, Courtney, you've done work on every side of the table and you've seen the results of both. And that's exactly the vantage point that this show one exists for, but also to pressure test. And I'm really grateful and honored that you came on. And before I let you go, who is someone we should have on the podcast?

00:36:43.530 — 00:36:49.770 · Speaker 2

I mean, I would say my fearless leader digital additive Roxane assertion. If you can get her.

00:36:50.450 — 00:36:52.130 · Speaker 1

I would love to have Roxana.

00:36:52.170 — 00:37:51.760 · Speaker 2

Offline and a plug for you. But I mean, she's been my mentor and was when I joined my first agency, which was a database agency here in Atlanta. She was a senior account person and I wasn't there very long, but I kept in touch with her because I knew I knew she was sharp, and she was the one who really started email marketing with big clients like The Home Depot and Carters.

And then there's a lot of shifts and agencies are let go. She saw opportunity and, you know, like you, she went out on her own and and built an in-house agency. And I think she has a lot of guts that I know I wouldn't have, but I, you know, she's always pushed me to try new things. And I think one of the reasons why I did leave is I was getting really comfortable under that umbrella of the agency, especially coming out of out of Covid and the pandemic.

And so I think for me, she actually saw it before I did. And so I.

00:37:51.760 — 00:37:53.400 · Speaker 1

Think of a great leader.

00:37:53.440 — 00:38:17.800 · Speaker 2

That's the sign of a great leader. And I've I've done that with my team as well.